Podcast Episode 41: Lamenesses that hide — kissing spine

Podcast6 Comments

I’m super excited about this kissing spine podcast. Why?

Because I just had someone verify my theory!

Weird and wonderful ideas you’ll hear on this Horse Mysteries Solved podcast:

  • There is no evidence that kissing spine itself causes pain
  • What could be causing kissing spine? Does the body do it on purpose? Why?
  • Every horse with kissing spine that I’ve checked has liver issues.
  • What’s really going on with equine kissing spine?

    Take a listen!

    Links Mentioned:
    Osphos and why its bad
    Reverse the Diagnosis

    Summary by AI:

    Dr. Renee Tucker, an equine veterinarian, discusses kissing spine in her podcast, emphasizing that by the time kissing spine is diagnosed, there may have been underlying issues for a while. She explains that kissing spine occurs when the spinous processes of the thoracic and lumbar vertebrae touch each other with bone, causing discomfort and lameness in horses. Dr. Tucker challenges the conventional theory that kissing spine results from bone rubbing together, suggesting instead that the body intentionally adds bone to connect the vertebrae due to underlying issues with intervertebral disks. She proposes that liver problems may be the root cause of kissing spine, as the liver plays a role in providing essential nutrients for ligaments and intervertebral disks. Dr. Tucker shares insights from her correspondence with Helen Davies, a researcher in South Africa, who has found evidence of kissing spine and liver problems in dissected horses. She recommends herbal liver support as a potential treatment to alleviate symptoms associated with kissing spine. Dr. Tucker concludes by urging horse owners to consider liver support for their horses and welcomes feedback and further research on the topic.


    Renee (00:01)
    Hello, friends. This is Dr. Renee Tucker, equine veterinarian. On today’s episode, we will be talking again about lamenesses that hide. And this one is kissing spine.

    Renee (00:12)
    Now, I am super excited to talk to you guys about this today, and I’ll tell you why. Because I had a person out of the blue email me from South Africa, and this person does a lot of horsedy section, and she is confirming my theory about kissing spine. So I’m super, super excited. We just actually had a zoom call yesterday, so it is all very fresh in my mind, and I hope you want to hear about it, too. Okay.

    Renee (00:39)
    The reason that kissing spine is in our lamenesses, that hide series here is because I believe by the time you see and diagnose kissing spine, you’ve actually had more problems that you know about probably for quite a while. And they could be those real subtle lamenesses where the horse is a little bit short strided and kind of walking on eggshells, even unhappy, don’t want to do their job, just not comfortable. Even those horses where you can sometimes give butte or banamine any n said, and they just do better and you don’t even know why. Dang it. But they do better when they’re on an anti inflammatory.

    Renee (01:31)
    So what’s up? Okay, so that is my prelude. What I’m going to talk about now is what exactly is kissing spine and then what people think it is, and then my theory about kissing spine. And I know you’ll love it. Okay, first of all, what is kissing spine?

    Renee (01:51)
    It’s a cute little name. It’s mostly talking about when the spinous processes of the horse, particularly in the back. So we’re talking about the thoracic vertebra by the ribs and then the lumbar spine. So the back of the horse has got thoracic and lumbar vertebra, and then every one of those vertebra have what’s called spinous process, and it’s just a piece of bone that sticks straight up towards the horse’s back. So with kissing spine, you see on an x ray that the top of these spinous processes have actually touched each other with bone.

    Renee (02:37)
    That’s the only thing you can see on an x ray is bone, by the way, it’s the white part on an x ray. And for an example, I don’t know if this will be helpful or not, so if it’s just too weird, don’t do it. Okay. If you just look at your hand and you spread your fingers apart, not counting the thumb, but just the fingers. And you spread them apart as far as they go.

    Renee (02:59)
    Don’t hurt yourself, all right? Just spread them apart. That’s sort of like the spinous processes of the horse. They stick straight up towards the top of the back. They are separate and they have space in between them.

    Renee (03:14)
    All right? So then with kissing spine, it’s going to sound so weird, but it’d be like if you had more finger growing out of the tops of your fingers, connecting your fingers. This is super freaky. Yeah, okay. It’s super freaky.

    Renee (03:31)
    And that’s really what’s sort of happening with kissing spine and the horse. The theory goes so far, other people’s theories, all right, is that somehow the spinous processes start rubbing together. And because it’s an agitation and they’re rubbing together, then the body makes more bone because of this rubbing together. And they kind of chalk it up to either genetics or a trauma or multiple traumas, possibly saddle fit issues, things like this, maybe misalignments, and maybe all of those could play a minor part. But I really do not think that is the primary problem.

    Renee (04:17)
    Now, once the horse’s spinous processes are essentially connected, either at the top, most commonly, but it could be connected all the way down the fingers. Right. It’s just somehow the body’s connecting these bones together with bone, it makes more bone to connect them together. Okay? So when they have that, they see it on x ray, and then the treatments to date are either injecting the general area, try to calm down the inflammation or something.

    Renee (04:52)
    And also surgery. So surgery, they go in and they literally cut off that excess bone that has grown in between each of the spinous processes. Okay? Now I’m going to tell you my theory, okay? And it’s been confirmed, okay?

    Renee (05:13)
    Not 100%, but it’s so right. You’re going to love it. Okay, listen, here’s what I always say. If something weird is happening in the body, the body is not surprised. It knows because it did it.

    Renee (05:26)
    Yes. With kissing spine, the body puts that bone there on purpose. And like Doberne, that’s what you just. No, no, it’s not because those spinous processes were rubbing together that they made the bone. No, they put that bone there before they rubbed together.

    Renee (05:47)
    They added the bone to the tops of the spinous processes in order to connect the bones together. Now, why would the body want to connect the tops of the vertebra, the spinous processes, together? Well, let’s toss out some ideas here, shall we? Okay, here’s mine. All right.

    Renee (06:10)
    If there’s a problem, let’s say, in the intervertebral disks. Let’s say those disks just got too squishy. Disks are in between every vertebra so that the vertebral bones don’t rub together. Right? Because that hurts.

    Renee (06:28)
    Anybody who has had a disk problem knows disk problems are bad. They are painful. All right, so if the intervertebral disks are a problem for the horse, they’re going to want to build up something. What could it do? Perhaps it could build more bone to keep the intervertebral disks from getting squished.

    Renee (06:53)
    Let’s just play this a little bit along. Further. If these intervertebral disks are squished, not only is there pain, but those disks could bulge out or rupture. Now, if this type of stuff is going on, then guess what, dude, the spinal cord is so close to getting impinged or pinched, so then the horse isn’t walking anymore. That’s an extreme.

    Renee (07:20)
    But if you pinch your spinal cord, that is serious stuff. The horse knows this. All right? So their body’s like, uhoh, our spinal cord is in danger because our disks aren’t working properly. So in this case, what we’re going to have to do is make some kind of backup system, and they add more bone to the spinous processes, purposefully connect them together like a bridge which strengthens the entire spinal cord area.

    Renee (07:54)
    Okay, so I hope that made sense. Now you may say, okay, Renee, way to make up that theory. Now, listen, here’s some proof I got, first of all, excuse me, only now that we’ve had a few years, maybe several years of people doing these surgeries on their horses and that we have really gotten some results coming through, sometimes the surgery works great, sometimes not. I don’t really want to get into the surgery, other than mention that people are just starting recently to have follow up x rays after the surgery, said, well, why didn’t they do it before? Because they thought they were done.

    Renee (08:39)
    Everyone thought, well, there’s too much bone and they’re rubbing together, and that’s got to hurt. So we’ll just cut it off and then we’ll be done. So they did that, and now people are starting to re x ray maybe six months later, maybe a year later, and what are they finding? That they’re seeing the bone regrow. So, yes, that’s thousands of dollars of surgery and the bones regrowing.

    Renee (09:05)
    Why? My point is, the body is doing it on purpose. It needs it there. All right. Okay.

    Renee (09:14)
    Now you say, well, that’s great, but what’s going on with the disks that they’re getting smooshy or are they being smooshed too much? Well, either way and both, I’m certain that was clear. Okay, what I believe is going on is all these horses have liver problems. You say, what in the heck does that have to do with the bones? All right, listen.

    Renee (09:47)
    The liver is in charge of so many things. Besides filtering the blood, the liver is in charge of creating the building blocks or, like, the groceries for ligaments to be built, as well as intervertebral disks. Okay? Every single horse I have checked, and we’re going into the hundreds that has kissing spine also has a liver problem. Now, I’ve been alone in saying this for a long time.

    Renee (10:19)
    Haven’t heard anybody else mention this. Then that’s what I’m talking about. So her name was Helen Davies from South Africa. She does horse dissections and a lot of them to try to help out vets to get them some answers. In South Africa, she got a copy of my ebook, which I wrote about this.

    Renee (10:38)
    It’s called reverse the diagnosis. I’ll put a link in there. Guys, it’s $5 if you want to look at it. Includes kissing spine and then. Oh, gosh, there’s three things in there.

    Renee (10:50)
    And then sacred iliac issues and then suspensory issues. All three, because all three, in my opinion, are symptoms. They’re called a diagnosis, but that are not the real problem. Something else is, like, I’m telling you right now, okay, so she got a copy of my book, and she’s like, oh, my gosh, let me talk to you, because here’s what I’m finding. She is finding the kissing spine issues on her dissections.

    Renee (11:17)
    And all those horses who have the kissing spine problem also have liver problems. This is fantastic. I am sorry. Not for the horses. Okay.

    Renee (11:30)
    But to try to figure this out so we can help some more horses. All right. She’s also finding subcondrial bone bruising. What’s that? Okay, so subcondrial is going to be below the cartilage in the bone.

    Renee (11:47)
    And she says normally, this is a white thing. It’s bone, cartilagey bone. It’s white, usually, maybe tannish white. Guys, she’s finding subcondrial bone that’s purple because it’s that bruised. Okay, so remember that mysterious horse where they just do better and aren’t so off or lame or unwilling to go if they’re on butylbanamine.

    Renee (12:15)
    Yeah. Subcondrial bone bruising. You can’t x ray that. You can’t find that at all before a dissection after they’re dead. So she’s finding that, and she’s saying that I find all that subcontrol bone bruising and the same horses have liver problems.

    Renee (12:34)
    Okay, so let me summarize this, because I realize this might be a little complex. The gist of it is the horse is having liver problems. The liver cannot make either enough or the right kind of whatever of groceries that the ligaments and the intervertebral disks need to function. If the ligaments and the disks can’t function correctly, they can’t prevent the disks from being squished. And the body would be like, holy crap, we got a problem.

    Renee (13:10)
    And they start building in the kissing spine extra bone, so we can cut off that bone all we want. And what we’re finding is it grows back. Now, we don’t have a lot of these repeat x rays, but on some, we do. But I do want to point out on some we don’t. So I want to mention, at risk of everyone getting mad at me, it’s probably too late for that.

    Renee (13:35)
    That I believe sometimes we don’t see the bone grow back because nine out of ten times the horses who are having kissing spine surgery have already had osphos or children. So that’s a drug. And what does that drug do? Prevent bone growth. So while, yes, I would love to have 100,000 x rays before and after surgery and post surgery a year later, even if we do so many of these horses, bone isn’t growing correctly anyway due to this drug.

    Renee (14:12)
    That drug does not get out of the system for at least a year.

    Renee (14:18)
    I think some study was saying something about four years. I don’t know. And that, of course, depends on how fast the horse’s bone is turning over, which is individual. All right, that’s my point. Kissing spine is put there on purpose because the horse has a liver issue.

    Renee (14:37)
    I know that sounds so weird, but that’s what I believe. That’s what I found. And here’s also another example of how this is true. I believe when I work with horses, with kissing spine, the first thing we do is a liver cleanse. Okay?

    Renee (14:54)
    So if you go to find some a liver cleanse, it’s also called liver support. It’s going to have milk thistle and whatever else. Please get just herbs. All right. You just need herbs, herbal liver cleanse, or herbal liver support in the US, I do recommend silver lining.

    Renee (15:13)
    No affiliation. I am sure there are many other companies I know of Thunderbrook equine in the UK. But that’s all I know, but it’s just herbs, so you really, theoretically, can’t screw that up. Herbs for the liver. So when that cleanses the liver, it helps clear out all the chemicals and heavy metals and toxins that are all impeding the liver from doing its jobs.

    Renee (15:41)
    So when I have horses go through, usually we start with 30 days. And you want to. Generally speaking, you want to do 30 days on, 30 days off for herbal products. But frankly, if a horse is at kissing spine, I usually just start with 60 days straight of herbal liver cleanse, and then I check them again. In most all of these cases, I find more physical movement through the spine.

    Renee (16:08)
    I do a lot of physical body checkups on these guys, as I do all horses, and they’re much improved. And their owners report pain is also improved just during the herbal liver cleanse, which means as soon as you clean out that liver and it can start making what it needs to make, the horse does better. Which brings me to another side point. Not that you’re interested, but I’m going to kind of keep rambling. Okay, so we have kissing spine, and the current running theory is that that extra kissing spine bone hurts the horse.

    Renee (16:45)
    Now, no offense to anyone, there’s no proof of this. Okay, I want to just mention two little things. There are studies where they just randomly x rayed a bunch of horses backs, like 100 horses. And did you know that of all the ones that had kissing spine, only about 50% were showing any pain? So there’s plenty horses who actually have kissing spine, but aren’t showing any symptoms, which means this is part of the body’s compensation system.

    Renee (17:21)
    It’s just part of normal. Then you get to a certain point when the body can’t compensate anymore, then now the body starts screaming about it, as in, now you have pain, now you have lack of mobility, now you have lameness, ouchiness, all that type of thing.

    Renee (17:41)
    Okay, that’s my theory. The liver is causing kissing spine. I mean, through a bunch of little steps, but that is the deal. And then we’re getting back up validation on this. So I’m super excited.

    Renee (17:54)
    Please, everyone, get your horse some liver support, because we’re all inundated with chemicals and toxins and heavy metals. If you’re thinking, I’m not giving my horse that, guys, think about the fertilizer that’s in the hay. Fertilizer, the pesticides, it can be in the groundwater from your neighbor’s farm. And you might have heard of the study that showed that glycophosphate is in the breast milk of women in every country on the planet. There is stuff everywhere that we should not be having.

    Renee (18:28)
    So you might want to liver cleanse yourself and just kind of do that on a regular basis, but not always. All right. Herbals in general, as I said, should be 30 days on, 30 days off. All right, I think that’s it. Please let me know if you have any questions, comments, if anyone knows of any other studies, that would be great.

    Renee (18:48)
    And I will talk to you guys about some other weird thing next time. Okay, bye.

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    6 Comments on “Podcast Episode 41: Lamenesses that hide — kissing spine”

    1. Wow. How very very interesting and evidence based too. I admire that you speak up for the horse , rather than the pharmaceutical companies like a lot of UK vets seem to do. Great.

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