Podcast Episode 42: Kissing Spine — Part 2

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If you listened to the last podcast of Horse Mysteries Solved, you know we talked about the true cause of kissing spine in horses.

This podcast is a continuation: Kissing spine Part 2.

The body has multiple compensation layers available to it.

You may be familiar with this straightforward example: when the left leg hurts, the body puts more weight on the right leg.

Besides compensating mechanisms, the body has multiple “backup” systems in place.

In this podcast, I share the body’s primary backup mechanism for avoiding kissing spine — this will be shocking.

Cheers to the truth getting out,
Renee Tucker, DVM

Summary by AI:

Dr. Renee Tucker discusses the concept of “kissing spine” in horses, emphasizing its connection to liver issues and heavy metal toxicity. She explains how the liver’s inability to properly filter heavy metals leads to ligament weakness, spinal compression, and the formation of extra bone. Tucker proposes that parasites serve as the body’s initial defense against heavy metals, suggesting that deworming horses may be counterproductive. She cites research on untreated horse herds as evidence of the potential health benefits of allowing parasites to naturally regulate heavy metal levels. Though acknowledging the difficulty in accepting this perspective, Tucker encourages listeners to consider the body’s natural mechanisms and the implications of disrupting them. She references Dr. Tom Cowan’s support of her hypothesis and invites further questions and discussion on the topic.


Dr. Renee (00:00)
You. Hello, friends. Dr. Renee Tucker here. Glad to have you back.

Dr. Renee (00:05)
Today’s episode of horse Mystery Solved is part two of kissing spine. So I am going to recap that briefly here in a minute. But if you haven’t heard the whole episode, you might want to go back to that. That’s episode 41. This is episode 42, part two of kissing Spine.

Dr. Renee (00:25)
It. Now, I do want to warn you that you may quit listening to me after this podcast, but I feel it’s worth the risk to bring you the truth as best as I know the truth at this moment in time. Okay, what is she going to say now? I know, right? Okay, first, a little recap about kissing spine.

Dr. Renee (00:50)
It’s kind of a long process. It’s a multistep of how kissing spine happens. So at the beginning, we have a problem with the liver. The liver is having an issue, and it cannot make the proper ligament building blocks or groceries or whatever you want to call it, the stuff the ligaments need to be correctly built and strong. Since the liver is not working right, the ligaments aren’t getting the correct building blocks.

Dr. Renee (01:22)
So the ligaments become a bit weak. Weak might be the wrong word. It’s more like brittle. Right. Ligaments have a lot of long tubules in them, if you will, and they get to where some of them are starting to break or snap, similar to when an electric cord has some wires in it, are breaking on the inside, but the whole thing still looks good from the outside, and it is still sort of working, but it’s starting to crack on the inside.

Dr. Renee (01:58)
So that starts happening. Now, the ligaments are basically what holds the whole skeleton together. Ligaments connect bone to bone, quite literally. They stick on the bone on one end of the ligament and another bone on the opposite end. And so it holds the skeleton together.

Dr. Renee (02:22)
It also, though, keeps the skeleton from collapsing in on itself. So when those ligaments aren’t working quite right, the bodies, particularly along the spinal cord, but everywhere else as well, but along the spinal cord, those vertebra start collapsing towards each other, squishing the Spine, shortening it. So the body says, uhoh, our intervertebral disks are getting squished. We must do something, because if those intervertebral disks keep getting squished and overpressured, well, what? They’re going to rupture, right?

Dr. Renee (03:05)
They’re going to bulge, rupture, and then there could potentially be damage to the spinal cord, in which case the horse is kind of dead then. So the body is thinking, oh my gosh, what can I do to avoid this terrible problem. So the body is desperate, and they build extra bone in between the spinous processes of the vertebra to avoid the complete collapse of the spinal vertebra system. Okay.

Dr. Renee (03:43)
The hows and whys of that I believe I covered in the previous one, and that was the summary. Now I would like to talk about the liver some more. The liver is the sort of primary cause, if you will, of kissing spine. Now, you will not find liver, sorry, liver issues on the blood work itself. If you take a blood test and you look for the liver, you only start seeing the liver enzymes being elevated.

Dr. Renee (04:16)
So that’s bad. But that only shows up when you’re just starting into liver failure. We’re not talking about liver failure here. The liver is still trying to work as best it can, but it can’t do it, so you won’t see it on the blood work. First of all, that’s important to know.

Dr. Renee (04:36)
And then what happens is the main cause of this liver issue for kissing spine is heavy metals. So the liver is trying to filter these heavy metals to get them out of the body, because too many are bad. They are toxic things like aluminum and arsenic and stuff like this. However, when the liver is filtering these heavy metals, it actually damages the liver itself. I know, right?

Dr. Renee (05:06)
So it can only do so much at a time. Secondarily, when the liver filters these heavy metals, the best place for them to go is into the digestive system so that they can get pooped out. Makes sense, right? However, if you put heavy metals in the digestive system, the intestinal tract, it damages the intestinal tract itself. So the liver is in a tough spot.

Dr. Renee (05:36)
It’s got to do it, but it’s hurting it, and it’s got to eliminate it, but it hurts the elimination pathway. So what can be done now? Let me tell you a story about airplanes, okay? Listen. Because the body is beautifully designed, God has made secondary tertiary systems just like airplanes.

Dr. Renee (06:00)
I don’t know if you know this, but I learned it. I thought it was fascinating. Airplanes have secondary and tertiary systems for a lot of the planes. They do not want them to crash. So, for example, the electrical systems of the big airplanes have tertiary.

Dr. Renee (06:20)
So three completely separate, redundant electrical systems. That means if the first system fails, the one they always use, if it fails, for whatever reason, the second one kicks on and it works. If the second one fails. Yeah. The third backup system kicks on because they don’t want the plane to fail.

Dr. Renee (06:45)
Right. They’ll do anything. So they got tertiary backup systems for the electrical and other systems as well, I don’t know all of them, but I think that’s cool. And a good plan, really. We do not want to fall out of the sky when we’re in an airplane.

Dr. Renee (07:00)
So here’s the thing. God made backup systems. Check this out. There are times when people go in for open heart surgery and they’re going to do a bypass surgery. So say they have a clogged artery and some of the major lines of the heart, right?

Dr. Renee (07:17)
The arteries. The surgeons go in intending to put a new artery from one of the clogged arteries to an unclogged artery. It’s just called a bypass. I’m sure you’re familiar with that. Sometimes they go in there for that surgery.

Dr. Renee (07:37)
Get this, there’s already a bypass artery there, and the body built it. Yes, you can look this up. The body will build new arterial routes, including major arterial vessels, if it feels it needs it. Major vessels. Just crazy.

Dr. Renee (07:57)
I mean, the aorta is enormous, and the body will build another one if it needs it. That’s kind of crazy. Don’t you think that’s kind of weird? It seems weird to have this extra stuff available, but the body will do it. So, as we kind of already talked about with kissing spine, the body is building extra protection for its spinal cord with bone in between the spinous processes.

Dr. Renee (08:25)
Now, the other backup system that I want to talk about is for the liver. Talked about. The liver is trying to filter the heavy metals. Yes. Giving the horse an herbal supplement for the liver support and or liver cleanse will help.

Dr. Renee (08:43)
It absolutely will help the liver. It’ll help them clear the heavy metals and help heal the liver of some of the damage that’s occurring to the liver because of the heavy metals that will absolutely help. It will absolutely improve portions of your heavy metal kissing spine issue. But I want to talk about this secondary backup system for heavy metals that is already in the body that unfortunately, people, humans were damaging it, and that is the parasite system. This is the part where the cognitive dissonance might come in.

Dr. Renee (09:24)
It really came in for me, because the truth of the matter is, and here it is. I’m just going to lay it there. Please listen with your spirit, okay? Because the spirit knows the truth. Parasites are the first line of defense the body has against heavy metals.

Dr. Renee (09:46)
I’m just pausing for you to process this. It took me quite a while myself. Parasites eat. Let’s just say eat, okay? They suck.

Dr. Renee (09:56)
They attach the intestine and they suck. And we always thought, well, they’re eating the food. They’re not eating the food parasites suck out heavy metals. So what do we do? And we think we’re being great horse owners.

Dr. Renee (10:10)
And I’ve been thought this was true as a veterinarian till probably only two years ago. Those parasites are needed. They suck out the heavy metals, and when they’re full, then they’re pooped out. I know many diligent horse owners are checking the parasite eggs and only deworming when there’s a good amount. You know why we do that?

Dr. Renee (10:36)
Because some of the parasitologists, so these are people with a phd in parasites. In some of their papers, they have been talking, and for quite a while that they believe there is some kind of symbiotic relationship between the body and the parasites. You know why? Because our bodies don’t have an immune reaction to these parasites. They don’t say, oh, my gosh, here’s an evil invader.

Dr. Renee (11:08)
Let’s get rid of it. Now, hold on, because I know some of you are thinking, sometimes they do, rarely they will. But most of those reactions are going to be to parasites from other species. So, for example, if you eat uncooked pork or sushi, that’s not cold enough or whatever, so you have parasite eggs from other species, like the pig or the fish, those don’t belong in the human. So, yes, absolutely.

Dr. Renee (11:40)
Our body mounts an immune response. We get sick. Those parasites go all over the body because they’re super confused, wondering how they got here when they’re supposed to be in a pig, and here they are in a human. Okay? So that’s one issue, and that’s separate.

Dr. Renee (11:57)
Okay, but the human parasite, the humans do not form an immune response. Horse parasites, the horses are not developing any kind of immune response. It’s almost like they’re supposed to be there, which they are. Okay, I know this is hard. It reminds me of a time back when I was young, and I was a young girl and I hated worms.

Dr. Renee (12:24)
Regular garden, red, wiggling worms. I mean, ew. My brothers would terrorize me with worms, and I would run away, okay? Because. Ew.

Dr. Renee (12:36)
And it wasn’t until I was an adult and I realized, oh, my gosh, earthworms are so valuable. They eat the soil, they cleanse the soil, they add minerals to the soil, they aerate the soil. If there’s no earthworms, then it’s very difficult for plants to grow. So once I learn the value of garden worms, now, when I see a little red worm, I think, oh, you are so cute. And I’m very happy because that tells me the soil is happy.

Dr. Renee (13:08)
So it’ll take some time, but it’s the same thing with the horse parasites. We need to stop deworming. I know I’m killing you right now. Take it or leave it. Maybe leave it and come back to it later.

Dr. Renee (13:26)
Those worms, the parasites, suck up heavy metals. When they’re full of heavy metals, they’re pooped out. Have you ever thought it mysterious why there are, in a herd of horses, only one or two horses that get most of the bot fly eggs? It’s because they’re the ones with most of the heavy metals. The flies know the horses kind of lick them, don’t they?

Dr. Renee (13:56)
Just let them be. You’re saying that’s going to kill my horse, to have so many parasites? No, it won’t. There is actually a study. I’m sorry.

Dr. Renee (14:07)
I do forget the university, but it’s at a university study. They had an entire herd of horses for 40 years. So far, they’re still there, who have been not dewormed at all for 40 years. Now. It’s a closed group.

Dr. Renee (14:25)
They’re not horses in and out. It’s closed herd, no dewormer. And the researchers are like, yeah, they got parasites. Some a little bit, some moderate. And they’re perfectly healthy.

Dr. Renee (14:38)
There are no problems not deworming. Now, I want to ask them how much kissing spine they got over there. Okay. But not yet. All right, so here’s my point.

Dr. Renee (14:51)
We already know kissing spine is from heavy metals. Trashing the liver. The liver can’t make the ligament groceries. Ligaments are failing. Spine is squishing.

Dr. Renee (15:07)
So our backup system to the liver filtration, and then the liver, putting the heavy metals in the digestion and pooping mechanism. So, as I was saying earlier, the liver gets damaged clearing heavy metals, the GI system gets damaged clearing heavy metals. They’re still doing it. But the first line of defense against heavy metals, that’s supposed to be there is parasites. If the parasites can clear the heavy metals, the liver is not damaged.

Dr. Renee (15:42)
The intestine is not damaged. You see? Please do email me if you have questions. I know it’s not easy. I know it’s not easy when you see your horse poop and there’s worms in it, because we all go, oh, my God, there’s worms.

Dr. Renee (15:57)
I know. I still do. I still think they’re kind of gross. Okay, but try to change it like I did with the little red garden worms. I’m like, oh, well, you sure are weird looking, but I’m happy you’re here, because that means you’re doing your job.

Dr. Renee (16:13)
And the garden is healthier for the red worms. And the horses are healthier to have actual parasites. Yeah, it’s true. Now, I know there’s a few potential issues you might think of that I’ve thought of so far. Well, what if your horse gets pain worms and they itch their butt?

Dr. Renee (16:34)
Well, yeah, when the worms are full, they come out and they are itchy sometimes. Let them be itchy. Wrap the tail, wash their butt. Okay. Don’t deworm them.

Dr. Renee (16:50)
Let the worms finish their job. If you start doing this, you are going to have more worms. Yes. The parasites need to be there, and they need to catch up. They need to get rid of all those heavy metals.

Dr. Renee (17:02)
So you might see something. Maybe your hair coat is not quite so beautiful. Okay. Just give it some time. Let it get flushed out.

Dr. Renee (17:12)
Another issue is neck threadworms. Are they itchy? Yeah, they are, but that’s where the heavy metals are. Just let it. I know this is really hard, but the more we try to deworm against neck threadworms, the worse they come back.

Dr. Renee (17:28)
The body is trying to save itself. Just stop deworming. I know. Easier said than done. Just keep breathing.

Dr. Renee (17:39)
It’s okay. I’m not trying to be a jerk about that. I have to say that to myself. When I learned these things that I thought were true for so many decades, then I’m like, oh, crap, that was wrong. Dang it all.

Dr. Renee (17:55)
Okay, I think that is all for today. Oh. Just to let you know, I am not the only weirdo. Let’s go with frontrunner, shall we? Front runner weirdo.

Dr. Renee (18:09)
Who’s saying this? All right, I was confirmed. Confirmed my brain anyways, by a physician, one of the new, what do they call it? They have a whole curriculum called new biology, where they’re really sharing the truths about things that we’ve gotten wrong for so many years. Dr.

Dr. Renee (18:32)
Tom Cohen Cowan and he was the first person, and frankly, the only person so far that I’ve heard confirm my hypothesis about the paras sites. And that’s who said it first. Parasites are the first line of defense against heavy metals. Okay, I will see you guys next time for an exciting crazy talk. And please keep sending in your questions and comments.

Dr. Renee (19:01)
I love all of them. Thank you for listening, and I’ll see you next time. Bye.

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14 Comments on “Podcast Episode 42: Kissing Spine — Part 2”

  1. Hi, Just listened to your fascinating podcast. I have a question. Have always been told that worms and bots if not removed will go through the stomach wall causing much larger problems. I have a picture of a bot larvae doing just that, from a scan I had done for ulcers on my horse. Interested on your thoughts on this.
    Regards Sue

    1. Hi Sue,

      Thanks for listening and your interesting question. I would love to see this picture! If you could email it to support@tuckerbiokinetic.com, that would be great.

      Here’s my opinion: I highly doubt bot larvae to completely through the stomach wall. If they did, stomach acid would be all over the inside of the horse.

      What I believe happens: bots are in some horses stomach’s because the stomach lining itself has heavy metals in it.
      Renee Tucker, DVM

    1. Not silly at all. Heavy metals are unfortunately everywhere. Horses (and people) get heavy metals from pesticides, fertilizers, herbicides (these 3 would be in hay) and those products also end up in the water table. In addition, heavy metals are in all vaccines.

    1. Heavy metals are unfortunately everywhere. Horses (and people) get heavy metals from pesticides, fertilizers, herbicides (these 3 would be in hay) and those products also end up in the water table. In addition, heavy metals are in all vaccines.

  2. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

    As a human practitioner of Chinese Medicine, this made perfect sense to me. I look forward to helping my horse and am sending in her hair analysis for heavy metals today. She’s already on Liver Support and told several animal communicators that her issue with her back was tendons and ligaments. Her diagnosis of KS don’t be for long.

  3. Hi I thought worms ate holes in the intestines and have heard of horses dying from infestation and notice a definite pot belly dull coat look about a wormy horse. Every time I worm my horses they have thread worms so obviously have some worms. Do all worms eat heavy metals and is there a level of infestation that could be dangerous?

    1. There are lots of stories about worms. I also thought a pot belly dull coat meant the horse was wormy. But now I believe the pot belly dull coat is from heavy metals. Does that horse have worms? yes! To get rid of the heavy metals.

      Certainly there are always exceptions, and some infestations could be dangerous (but that would be rare).

      Thanks for listening,
      Renee Tucker, DVM

  4. AHA moment! This makes total sense to me. I have been using a natural deworming program for years with our personal and performance horses. The relationships you spelled out here make perfect sense to me, so thanks so very much for that. I do have a question. Could this be an underlying culprit to the plethora of ligament injuries in horses?

    Here is where my mind is going: weakened ligaments contributing (as in originating problems to spinal support) aka kissing spine, leading to protective posture/movement habits starting the whole circle of problems in a lot of horses these days. Thanks again for this (I’m off to listen for the 4th time because the AHA moment was so profound).

    I see it often as a bodyworker and trying to help my clients “problem solve”. Note: I’ve been doing this for over 30 years and started before that as an N.D. helping people (which is why all this makes perfect sense to me).

    P.S. The website listed is just one that I use but gives you a good idea of where my focus is these days (it’s due to be revamped but it gives you a good idea of my “thought processes”.

    1. Hi Dee,

      So glad you liked it and that it makes sense to you! I appreciate your comment, so I know I’m not the only crazy one. haha!

      I do agree that this is part of many horse issues, including ligament injuries.

      Thanks again for listening,

  5. Dr Tucker, I am a big fan of yours and we live in the tropics (Costa Rica) where we have 40 plus horses at the farm. We have no real seasons but just rainy season and dry season, therefor parasites are here all year. We do use ivermectin to get rid of the huge tabanos flies who lay eggs in the skin and have huge larvae coming out which is very painful for the horses. Also hebroneamia is a larvae in a small wound eating flesh and leaving huge holes in the horses, painful and never healing. How can we deal with these parasites without ivermectin? I am open to any suggestion!!!!!!!

    1. Hello Githa,

      Thank you for your kind words, and I appreciate you listening to the podcast.

      I have not been to Costa Rica although I’ve heard it is beautiful.

      I’m not familiar with tabanos flies but they sound awful. We do have habronema over here, but seen more often in cattle.

      I agree that the destruction of the skin by parasites is something we want to stop. However, my point is that these parasites (even the skin type), would NOT be there except there are delicious heavy metals in the horse to eat.

      Therefore, to truly deal with parasites, we have to get rid of all sources of heavy metals. These include (but may be others in Costa Rica): pesticides, herbicides, vaccines, fertilizers, contaminated groundwater, tick products, pour-on fly products, flea products, and I’m sure there is more.

      So what you want to do is support the liver with liver cleanse/support products. Or plant liver supporting herbs (such as milk thistle). Just look up online the liver supporting herbs and see which ones grow in your country. Maybe you can just plant those all over your farm; see what the horses eat.

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